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From what I've read, Joel Rich is a commenter who is a able to provide the cool-headed neutral opinion in the blogosphere on all the hot-button issues.
http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/08/26/a-response-to-my-critics/
- I would be interested in your reaction to the following quote from R’ Slifkin “What did he learn from the controversy? “I learned that the haredi and non-haredi communities differ in their approach to Torah in a much greater way than I ever imagined, and that it is impossible to bridge the gap.” Do you think this is accurate and therefore worthy of a separation process or can charedism coexist philosophically with MO? IF MO is written off do you think TIDE will be acceptable or will the system of education you mention turn TIDE into the next MO?
KVCT
Comment by joel rich — August 26, 2007 @ 2:48 pm
I was glad that he asked me about it and I thought CC would allow a direct response to a direct question.
I remember writting something to this effect:
"The gaps are indeed unbridgable. As can be clearly seen from the public statements and writings of Dr. Marc Shapiro, Dr. Ross and XGH, most of the academic modern Orthodox have taken the position (either publicly or privately) that many of the 13 ikkarim of the Rambam are negotiable and if necessary, expendable. The clash between this view and the view of the Chareidi community is enormous, but there is never any interface between them so we don't always see this clash on the surface.
R' Slifkin, in his approach to mesorah, has aligned himself with this segment of the Modern Orthodox. And since he was percieved as a possible bridge-head between these two worlds, recieved the brunt of this clash. "
No Luck. It was censored.
Thanks to recent discussions in the last comments to this post I think I can let Anon1 speak for himself. See especially the last bold-faced lines at the end.
- Freelance Kiruv Maniac said...
To Anon1:
Just to make sure you respond to my question to you:
No fundamental religious issue here, just the facts-- unless you want to say that our mesorah is not capable of providing any facts about the real history of the world.
Tell me the truth, is that what you believe?
Please answer this question candidly.
Anon1 said...
Our mesorah HAS provided a fact about the history of the world - it asserted that the universe had a beginning, which was confirmed in the last century. But I don't believe that we can know with any certainty which things in our mesorah are facts and which aren't - i.e which were told at Sinai and which weren't. Which is why Rambam and Kuzari were even willing to reinterpret the eternity of the universe if proven.
Your assertion that Hashem told Moshe that creation didn't happen naturalistically would clearly mean that it is IMPOSSIBLE for evolution, or even geology regarding the development of the world, to be true without utterly disproving Judaism. This is clearly not the approach of Rav Hirsch, amongst others. Which doesn't mean that you can't take your own approach, but it does mean that you should acknowledge that others have approached it differently.
Freelance Kiruv Maniac said...
Talk about contradictions.
Statement #1:
>"Our mesorah HAS provided a fact about the history of the world - it asserted that the universe had a beginning, which was confirmed in the last century.
Statement #2
Rambam and Kuzari were even willing to reinterpret the eternity of the universe if proven."
Furthermore, to paraphrase your challenge:
Your assertion that Hashem told Moshe that the universe had a beginning would clearly mean that it is IMPOSSIBLE for certain powerful trends in modern cosmology today to be true without utterly disproving Judaism.
Correct?
Tell me honestly, if this trend became the dominant view (as evolution is today), what would you do? This is not a mere hypothetical because we are talking about theories and not facts that need solid proof before being accepted by the scientific community.
Steven Hawking and Wienberg are seriously working on the "problem" of the beginning of the universe.
So would that mean that Hashem could be wrong, or that you're not really so sure that Hashem told Moshe that the universe had a beginning?
I guess you just answered that question by referring to the Rambam and Kuzari that even this single fact of our mesorah is not really a fact.
Conclusion: You really don't believe that our mesorah can provide a single fact about the history of the world.
Anon1 said...
There is no contradiction in what I wrote. In theory, the mesorah could provide a fact - Hashem knows facts. In practice, we have no way of knowing which parts of our mesorah are from Hashem and which are not. That is why only in retrospect can we say which parts are shown to be factual.
Now I ask you. Do you want this rabbi teaching in your yeshivah or seminary?
